Responding To Chaos From Heaven’s Perspective

Responding To Chaos From Heaven’s Perspective

In our last post, we talked about how fear is doing far more harm than the coronavirus, and how some are actively promoting fear by exaggerating a real situation. I’ve gotten several emails and messages since writing it, including from people working in the health system. Some people are hearing from nurses who’ve gone for a week to help in NYC that it was very difficult. Let’s pray for the health workers in the areas where this is worst. But we are also hearing more reports that doctors using hydroxychloroquine are seeing remarkably quick recoveries. In fact, a friend in my Facebook feed shared that her 88-year-old grandmother with only one lung, diabetes, heart failure, and declining kidney function beat Coronavirus in three days with the hydroxychloroquine treatment! I am praying that this highly-effective treatment would be used more widely and that people would see through the attempts to discourage or discredit it.

We are also hearing more health workers speaking out about the exaggerations in the numbers. One email I received said “I spoke to my friend who works in a Pallative Care Unit turned COVID-19 Unit. She said the virus gives the exact same symptoms that a terminally ill person would get at the end of their life. When they die, at the moment, they aren’t tested but are given as the ’cause of death’, you guessed it, “COVID-19”. The numbers are so fudged it’s ridiculous.” 

Anyways, I’d like to talk a little more about our perspective and response to what’s going on…

Jesus Died To Free Us From The Fear Of Death


Hebrews 2:14-15 (NIV) Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil— and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death.

I got really sick just two days before I was going to leave for my second trip to Russia. I felt horrible and had a really sore throat. And I was going to minister healing in Russia! I felt the fear that this would ruin my trip.

But the Holy Spirit spoke this verse to me and told me to reject the fear of death. Even though I wasn’t expecting to literally die from this sickness, I recognized that the fear of feeling horrible for a few weeks and the sickness ruining my trip was a form of the fear of death. So I rejected that fear.

I was running on little sleep, and the natural thing I should have done was staying home. But there was a worship night that Friday and I wanted so badly to go. My plane would then leave on Monday. I went to the worship night and felt overwhelmed by God’s goodness as I sang. My hands and mouth started to vibrate violently. 15 minutes later the symptoms were gone. I rejected fear, worshipped Jesus, and the vibration of his goodness killed the virus.

Even secular scientists recognize that chronic fear and anxiety suppress the immune system!

I just thought it interesting that I am writing this on Easter, or resurrection day. Jesus conquered death! His death is our death and his resurrection is ours! We identify with him in his death and resurrection, and it sets us free from the fear of death.

During a time when we lived in Duque de Caxias and I was really hard-pressed, I started singing “I don’t know if I’ll live or die. But as long as I live, I want to live for you, Jesus!”

Galatians 2:20 (NIV) I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

Colossians 3:3 (NIV) For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God.

How can you be afraid of death if you’ve already died with Christ and your life is hidden in him?

Philippians 1:20-22 (NIV)  I eagerly expect and hope that I will in no way be ashamed, but will have sufficient courage so that now as always Christ will be exalted in my body, whether by life or by death. For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know!

I don’t want to die yet, but I’m not afraid of it. I want as much time as possible to represent Jesus on this earth. I’m on the highway to heaven and want to take as many people as I can with me! Yet either way, whether I live or die, I win in Christ! He has conquered death!

An evil spirit is promoting the fear of death through the media. Much of the way we trample on Satan’s power is simply standing firm, proclaiming the truth, and moving in the opposite spirit. Jesus has given us authority to trample on all the power of the enemy, but we will only do so if we are walking in fearlessness.

Is Your Foundation Firm?


Matthew 7:24-27 (NIV) “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”

If I feel like I’m falling apart, I have an opportunity to examine my life foundations. The storm comes to both the wise and the unwise, but the house built on the rock will stand. Do I really believe in the victory Jesus accomplished for me by his resurrection, or am I just giving mental assent to the fact that he resurrected? Have I resolved that whether I live or die, whatever comes, I belong to Jesus?

Being beaten and blown by the wind may loosen a tree’s roots, but if the wind doesn’t completely uproot the tree the shaking only makes way for the roots to grow deeper!

Conspiracy Theories?


A lot of conspiracy theories are going around right now. When I say that some people have intentionally exaggerated this situation and pushed fear for ulterior motives, some people write it off as a “conspiracy theory.”

I don’t believe all the conspiracy theories that are going around. However, people and nations have conspired and deceived throughout history, and the nature of humans living in rebellion to God has not suddenly changed now!

Psalm 2:1-6 (NIV) Why do the nations conspire and the peoples plot in vain? The kings of the earth rise up and the rulers band together against the Lord and against his anointed, saying, “Let us break their chains and throw off their shackles.” The One enthroned in heaven laughs; the Lord scoffs at them. He rebukes them in his anger and terrifies them in his wrath, saying, “I have installed my king on Zion, my holy mountain.”

Psalm 33:10-11 (NRSV) The Lord brings the counsel of the nations to nothing; he frustrates the plans of the peoples. The counsel of the Lord stands forever, the thoughts of his heart to all generations.

Many people thought that talk of political elites engaging in pedophilia and child trafficking was just a “conspiracy theory.” Then with the arrest and murder of Jeffry Epstein, they realized that more than they had imagined of this “conspiracy theory” was true.

The biblical response to “the nations conspiring” is praise to our God who frustrates the plans of the peoples, and proclamation of His lordship and kingdom over the earth. We worship that which captures our attention. We confront evil. We don’t hide from it, but we refuse to be impressed by it. When we encounter evil that disturbs us, it is important to continue giving our “worth-ship” to Jesus. He’s the one who is totally impressive and worthy of my attention!

Is The Mark Of The Beast Next?


I’ve been hearing more talk than I have in years about the “mark of the beast.” Bill Gates wants to implement digital vaccine certificates and maybe even tattoos that people need to have in order to travel or do anything. Many Christians are concerned that this is leading to “the mark.”

I agree with the strong outcry against this. I don’t want microchips, forced tattoos, or forced vaccinations! Yet I encourage Christians to question the view that this is inevitably going to happen. I am convinced that the mark of the beast is a historical event-it already happened! And it does not need to happen again.

Jesus taught us to pray “You’re kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.” Trying to pray this prayer in faith for the nations when we think that evil is inevitably going to dominate and “the antichrist” will take over the world, is about the same as trying to pray the prayer of faith for healing when you think that God is using the sickness to teach someone a lesson. It’s double-minded and powerless!

Notice what the Psalms we read above say. Yes, evil people plot, but God frustrates their plans. His purposes stand firm. This is what we need to be declaring. I encourage you to read Psalm 37. Here’s just a little bit, but you may want to read this over and over again as you pray about the current situation.

Psalm 37:1-2, 7-15 (NRSV) Do not fret because of the wicked; do not be envious of wrongdoers, for they will soon fade like the grass, and wither like the green herb…Be still before the Lord, and wait patiently for him; do not fret over those who prosper in their way, over those who carry out evil devices. Refrain from anger, and forsake wrath. Do not fret—it leads only to evil. For the wicked shall be cut off, but those who wait for the Lord shall inherit the land. Yet a little while, and the wicked will be no more; though you look diligently for their place, they will not be there. But the meek shall inherit the land, and delight themselves in abundant prosperity. The wicked plot against the righteous, and gnash their teeth at them; but the Lord laughs at the wicked, for he sees that their day is coming. The wicked draw the sword and bend their bows to bring down the poor and needy, to kill those who walk uprightly; their sword shall enter their own heart, and their bows shall be broken.

Proverbs 29:5-6 (AMP) A man who flatters his neighbor [with smooth words intending to do harm]
Is spreading a net for his own feet. By his wicked plan an evil man is trapped, But the righteous man sings and rejoices [for his plan brings good things to him].

We’ve had wicked people rise up many times before in history, but they were blown away like the chaff and their plans were frustrated. Remember Hitler? Many people also thought that was the end of the world. We declare, along with scripture, that those who persist in unrepentant wickedness will fall into their own trap and be blown away like the chaff. Their plans will be frustrated, but the purposes of the Lord will prevail!

Maybe you’re asking “What? What about the antichrist and the mark of the beast? Isn’t everything going to just get worse until Jesus comes back?” The following articles may help you to find clarity about this:

God’s Purposes For The Nations

Victorious Eschatology

Who Is The Antichrist?

Why The World Is Getting Better

I can very well see the current events being turned around for good as the wicked overplay their hand and fall into their own trap. We see in part and prophesy in part. Before this happened, I was praying and I began to have several visions about Spain and hearing phrases like “the Iberian Tiger.” And I believe the interpretation of what I saw and heard was that Spain is going to have a roaring economy in the next years.

This was completely unexpected, nothing to do with what I was praying or thinking about. It was not the first thing I would have imagined either, as I’d heard so much about Spain’s bad situation after the 2008 financial crisis. So understand, I’m not a financial adviser to trying to tell anyone to put their money into Spain, and I expect people to test for themselves any prophecy that I give. I’m just saying, Spain has been one of the hardest-hit countries from the coronavirus recently, but God’s perspective on the future may be a lot more positive than what many of us are seeing. I believe God has heavenly plans and purposes for the nations, and for the nation of Spain!

Conclusion


Some people have been gripped by fear of Coronavirus. Others realize that the situation has been hyped up and exaggerated to cause panic, but are much more afraid of where we are going. They realize that certain people have a sinister agenda.

I hope this post has encouraged you to reject fear and fatalism, and instead respond by praising the King of all Nations and declaring his dominion! I hope encourages you to engage in believing prayer in agreement with God’s purposes for the nations. Remember, Elijah was a man like us, with similar weaknesses. Yet he changed the course of nations as he prayed in faith and proclaimed God’s word!

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18 comments on “Responding To Chaos From Heaven’s Perspective
  1. Onesimus says:

    And the Bible says…

    “Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.

    Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.” 2 Thess 2

    “At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.” Matt 24

    • Jonathan says:

      Hi,

      The key here is that the word “coming” in scripture is often used of judgement in scripture and not always of Jesus’s final coming. Isaiah 19:1 is a very good example of this: A prophecy against Egypt:

      See, the Lord rides on a swift cloud
      and is coming to Egypt.
      The idols of Egypt tremble before him,
      and the hearts of the Egyptians melt with fear.

      In the Matthew 24 passage, the end Jesus is talking about is very clearly the destruction of the temple. The Luke 21 parallel passage tells us what the “abomination that brings desolation” is. It says “When you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies.” Then the most clear and emphatic part of the passage is when Jesus says “Surely, all this will happen before this generation passes away.” Many scholars agree with me that this is very clearly a passage about the destruction of Jerusalem and not about Jesus’s final coming. They make a distinction between Jesus’s coming in the clouds in Matthew 24 (the same language as Isaiah 19 uses,) and Jesus’s coming in glory, or final coming, as in Matthew 25 and 1 Corinthians 15.

      Also, all the signs in Matthew 24 happened exactly as Jesus said, and this is very clear when reading the works of historians like Josephus or Tacitus. Including the group of soldiers attacking came from the east with a lighting emblem, and the soldiers surrounding the city had an eagle/vulture on their banner. Including the false messiahs leading people into the dessert, signs from heaven like a sword that hung in the sky above the city for a whole year, and more. Scripture itself says in several passages that the gospel was preached to all nations in that generation. For example, Paul says in Colossians “This gospel has been preached in all the world, and now has come to you.”

      Jesus said in Matthew 24 that the gospel would be preached in all the world and then the end would come. The end he was talking about, if we read the beginning of the chapter, was the end of the age and destruction of the temple, not the end of the world. The early Christians understood their current events to be what Jesus had prophesied in Matthew 24, so when they saw Jerusalem surrounded by armies they fled to the hills (to Pella) as Jesus had told them to (He told THEM that THEY would flee when THEY saw those things.) And that is how they escaped the destruction.

      Your passage in Thessalonians is similar. He was talking about events THEY would experience and said that THEY understood what was restraining the mystery of godlessness. I shared about these passages in both these blog posts, which also link to further and more detailed explanations:

      http://gotoheavennow.com/victorious-eschatology/
      http://gotoheavennow.com/who-is-the-antichrist/

      I hope that helps!

  2. Onesimus says:

    Jonathan,

    Preterism is to Biblical Prophecy, what Cessationism is to healing, deliverance and Spiritual gifts.

    Both Preterism and Cessationism push the objects of their focus into the past, making them no longer valid today or into the future.

    The theological gymnastics required to justify preterism are no different to those required of those who claim that Spiritual gifts, healing and deliverance are all things of the past.
    Preterist conclusions are no different to those of the cessationist.

    Many scholars agree with the cessationists too.

    Jesus’ statement: “this generation will by no means pass away till these things take place” has a clear immediate context. The generation that sees “all these things” – all of the signs He has predicted, will not pass away until ALL of it has been fulfilled.
    Once the things prophesied start they will be completed quite quickly, not stretching out over a long period. “And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened”.

    Yes there are elements of Matt 24 that were fulfilled in the past, but the majority is yet to come – and even those events that have occurred are shown elsewhere in scripture to also have a future application when Jerusalem is again surrounded by enemies, immediately before Jesus’ return (Zech 14 for example).

    In closing I’ll point out the sign that Jesus emphasises by repetition and length: the sign of deception and deceivers that if possible would deceive the elect – however He adds that He is giving a warning ahead of time to prepare those who hear Him.

    Revelation and other prophetic accounts of the days prior to Jesus return are written for a purpose – to prepare believers of any generation, especially those around in the years immediately prior to Jesus coming back, for the hard times, persecution and possible martyrdom they will face. Undermining that is a dangerous path to take.

    Tim

  3. Jonathan says:

    Hi again,

    On the contrary, both dispensationalism and cessationism became popular through the Scoffield reference Bible. Which is why it’s ironic that dispensationalism became so popular among pentecostals! Both teach a powerless church, as cessationism says spiritual gifts were for the past and dispensationalism says the church of the last days is backslidden and lukewarm, having failed in it’s mission.

    You also have to literally change the words of scripture to say “this generation” means “that generation.” A near demonstrative always means the present generation, not one thousands of years away. Even the most prominent of dispensationalist scholars change the word “this” to “that” in the Matthew 24 passage, but changing what scripture says and the words it uses to fit out theology is unacceptable. If Jesus told THEM that THEY would surely see these things, even saying “You who are standing here before me,” and they were not going to see them, Jesus lied to them.

    In fact, millions of Christians were convinced Jesus would return in 1988 because they said “this generation” means “that generation when Israel is reborn.” And 1988 was 40 years after. Then they redefined a generation to 70 years when it didn’t happen in 1988. But they missed it again in 2018. Those kinds of failed predictions are typical of futurism and they have done incredible harm to the church.

    In Revelation, John also says literally, repeatedly, and quite emphatically that these things are about to happen very soon. The history matches so much of it so precisely that I can’t ignore it…

    • Onesimus says:

      You say that John repeatedly says that “these things are about to happen soon” – however most of those occasions are quoting of Jesus saying He is coming soon. And HE hasn’t returned yet – so how “soon” is “soon” to a God to whom a day is as a thousand years?

  4. Onesimus says:

    HI Jonathan,
    Not sure what happened to your comment to which I’m replying – that I received an email about.

    Please don’t introduce “dispensationalism” as a straw man argument. I’m not a dispensationalist.

    For the first few years of my Christian life (more than 40 years ago) I probably was a dispensationalist without realising it – until I chose to study what scripture had to say for myself and then found the end time teachings I’d swallowed, dished up by popular teachers and the church I attended, were wildly wrong. In that I eventually found the importance of searching the scriptures for myself rather than swallowing man’s theologies.

    Of course it can be beneficial to refer to the findings of others, but when theology informs biblical understanding instead of the bible informing theological understanding, we are certain to fall for error.

    Also there’s no need for the further straw men of failed predictions of Jesus’ return – considering scripture itself makes it abundantly clear that such predictions are futile.

    Your quibbling over words saying I’m making “this generation” mean “that generation.” is also disingenuous. The term “this” used in Matt 24, according to Mounce, is the same word translated as “these things” in the same passage. It is also noted as a term ” used by way of contempt”(Mounce).

    Jesus is therefore not being complimentary about the generation who will see the signs and miss their importance. The generation that will not pass away before “all these things take place”.

    Preterism is a theological bed-fellow of cessationism, both being doctrines that consign revelations of scripture to the past and make them irrelevant for the present and future.

    • Jonathan says:

      Hi,

      I’m not accusing you of being a dispensationalist, but I am making the point that it is the most popular form of futurism today that is a bedfellow of cessationism, and not partial preterism. By the way, it is very important for me to use the term “partial preterism” is there is a huge difference with full preterism and it’s important to make the distinction rather than just using the generic “preterism.” Most partial preterists consider full preterism heretical.

      “This generation” is not quibbling over terms. It is very clear and literal language, and it goes with parallel passages in which Jesus tells people alive in the first century that they will see his coming. In the very passage, he told people who were alive in the first century “when you see these things,” and some of them did see those things, which was why they heeded Jesus’ warning and fled to Pella when they saw Jerusalem surrounded by armies. If the people Jesus was talking to would not see the things Jesus said they would, then Jesus was lying. And of course Jesus wasn’t lying. Again, the confusion is in that Jesus was not talking about his final coming but was using Old Testament prophetic language to talk about a coming in judgement on Jerusalem. The same language as Isaiah 19 and other passages.

      I am not only talking about failed predictions of Jesus’s return, but multitudes of other failed predictions of catastrophe that have come out of the worldview that looks at everything on the current headlines as pointing to the end of the world…all the while when data shows that the world is significantly improving.

      These time phrases “very soon” and “about to happen” are very emphatic and are literal time statements, not figurative. Daniel prophesied exactly when Jesus would come and it was several hundred years from his time. The angel in Daniel said “Seal up the words of this book, because it will be a long time until these things happen…”

      On the contrary, the angel in the book of Revelation said “Do not seal up the words of this book, because these things are about to happen very quickly.”

      These time phrases lose all meaning and relevance if you assume that “about to happen very soon” means more than 2000 years for the events of Revelation to happen, when “a long time” for the events of Daniel to happen was a few hundred years. I think it’s preposterous to look at these passages from Daniel and Revelation together (and the one in revelation is obviously an allusion to Daniel), and then conclude that the “very quickly” of Revelation is a much longer time than the “long time” of Daniel!

  5. Onesimus says:

    You said: “…it goes with parallel passages in which Jesus tells people alive in the first century that they will see his coming.”

    And He came back when?

    Clearly He hasn’t yet.

    And the following happened when?

    “Immediately after the distress of those days
    “‘the sun will be darkened,
    and the moon will not give its light;
    the stars will fall from the sky,
    and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
    “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.”

    Considering the things mentioned here are among “all these things” that will happen before the end of the generation that Jesus refers to.

    You said: “I am not only talking about failed predictions of Jesus’s return, but multitudes of other failed predictions of catastrophe that have come out of the worldview that looks at everything on the current headlines …”

    Another straw man argument.

    The issue is not what people’s silly claims have been – but whether we trust scripture as written instead of trying to squeeze it through man’s theological traditions – whether Preterism, Cessationism or Dispensationalism.

    All the things foretold in Biblical prophecy WILL happen at their appointed time. To dismiss them as past events, or to make wild predictions about when exactly they will happen are equally foolish and dangerous.

  6. Jonathan says:

    As I said, the Old Testament uses exactly the same language about coming on a cloud such as in Isaiah 19, and “coming on a cloud” is an idiom for judgement. Jesus did “come” in judgement on Jerusalem. Witnesses even saw armies and horses marching in the sky and all kinds of heavenly signs when it happened, including a sword extended down toward the city from the sky from a whole year..

    The sun, moon, and stars are poetic, figurative language, not literal. They represent the leaders of the people. If literal stars, which are much larger than the sun, fell to earth, nothing more would happen after that because all would be dead. This same poetic language describing judgement is common in the Old Testament.

    On the other hand, the time statements of Jesus and John are clear, literal, and emphatic language, not poetic. “This generation” never means a future generation, and “when you see these things” never means “when they see these things.” So I am taking scripture as it is written instead of trying to reinterpret literal time statements, and I am interpreting scripture with scripture by cross referencing this Old Testament passages which use the same language. Saying “this generation” means “that generation” and “you” means “they” is man’s interpretation and is not taking scripture as it is written.

    Dr. Kenneth Gentry comments very well on how the “gathering the elect” in this passage happened, he is an outstanding Bible scholar and I’m not going to explain it better than he did in my comments. Which is why, in the posts about eschatology I linked to above, I gave many links to him and other more detailed information for those who want to learn more. His arguments are compelling and convincing.

  7. Onesimus says:

    Again your reply to me, that I received by email notification, isn’t appearing on your site.

    I had been intending to say that your comments so far have made it clear that you’ve picked up your Preterist beliefs from theologians and not from the Bible. Just the fact that you apply the term Preterist to yourself was a good indication of that.

    However your recommendation of Kenneth Gentry’s work confirms that suspicion.

    Personally I would NOT be looking to a Calvinist, Preterist, Post-Millennialist theologian for any understanding of biblical prophecy.

    I have much more confidence in the Holy Spirit and the clear word of what scripture actually says on the page, than I have of theologians who find a need to explain what the Bible “really” means.

    I repeat what said earlier: Preterism is to biblical prophecy is what cessationism is to healing, deliverance and the gifts of the Spirit.

    They are theological bed-fellows that that consign revelations of scripture to the past and make them irrelevant for the present and future

  8. Jonathan says:

    There is much variety of beliefs within historical Christianity. Can we disagree without always judging the motives of anybody who holds a different position? I strongly disagree with Calvinism, but that being said, Dr. Kenneth Gentry has some excellent scholarship on certain matters and I’m not going to write off everything because he’s a Calvinist. As you can see, it’s very hard to fit my theology in a single camp.

    None of the futurist theology every made sense to me, there were so many Biblical contradictions and problems, but I never heard anything else but futurism for so long. I read through the Bible the first time when I was seven years old and read it many times as a teen. It was precisely because of reading through the Bible so many times, especially Psalms and Isaiah, that I had tons of questions in the back of my mind concerning futurism. And when I read a book by a Charismatic partial preterist, it answered my questions. I understood clearly so many passages that I’d thought I’d never be able to understand when I was a teen.

    I am giving you biblical reasons why I believe Matthew 24 and much of Revelation is past, but instead of engaging with them, so far you are attacking my motives and saying I’m just listening to men because I’ve referred to some of today’s leading Bible scholars. I don’t believe Matthew 24 happened just because somebody told me so, but because of what the text itself says, especially because Jesus stated in no unclear language that those he was talking to would see it. I’ve heard futurist vs. partial preterist debates on Matthew 24 but I’m thoroughly unimpressed with the faulty, and in my opinion, absurd logic of those who try to argue that “this generation” means anything other than “this generation.” Or that there is a gap of thousands of years in Daniel’s 70 week prophecy, etc.

    Can you accept that I sincerely hold this position because I believe it’s what the text of scripture points to?

  9. Onesimus says:

    Jonathan,
    I’m not questioning your motives, I’m questioning your conclusions and the source of them.

    Again you reveal that the source of your beliefs was man’s teaching: “And when I read a book by a Charismatic partial preterist..”

    I can accept that you sincerely hold your position, but its not because the text of scripture points that way.

    Maybe a good place to start would be to gain an understanding of God’s ultimate purpose regarding mankind and the rest of His creation. Then you might not be so enthusiastic about theologies and theologians that are contrary to that purpose and actually deny it.

    Just a hint, the answer can be found in Revelation – right at the end – as well as in 2 Peter 3:13.

    And prior to that ultimate outcome, it would be a good idea to recognise God’s plans for Israel and their future salvation as they as a whole nation recognise Jesus as the Messiah, and turn to Him, fulfilling many OT prophecies (notably Amos 9. Zechariah 12 and 13, as well as Paul’s prophecy Romans 11:26.

    This occurs at the time of Jesus’ return to earth and His 1000 year reign.

    But that’s another thing a Calvinist, Preterist, Post-Millennial theologian would most likely contradict.

  10. Jonathan says:

    So we throw out scholarship that bring clarity to scripture by giving historical and cultural context to the tough passages, and say it’s “following man’s teaching” if we accept some of their points because they make total sense? When the views that reject such scholarship are completely confusing and aren’t really consistent with all of scripture?

    As much as you are accusing me of following man’s teaching, you have given no satisfactory response to my scriptural objections to interpreting Matthew 24 as a passage about Jesus’s final coming. The end it speaks of is the end of the age and destruction of the temple, Jesus said they would surely see these events in their generation and they did. The false messiahs, wars and rumors of wars, gospel preached to all nations, all happened in that generation and the Christians who escaped understood that what was happening was what Jesus said in Matthew 24. That’s why they fled!

  11. Onesimus says:

    We should clearly “throw out scholarship” when we can see the “scholar” is promoting theology contrary to scripture, particularly those who have a wrong view of the gospel (Calvinism and its insistence that God alone chooses who will be saved and who will be damned).

    Or those who deny Jesus’ 1000 year reign on earth from Jerusalem, and the associated salvation of Israel who as a complete nation finally recognise Him as their Messiah.

    Or have no understanding whatever about God’s ultimate purpose of a totally new creation, a new heavens and earth where only righteousness dwells, which is the believers’ ultimate destination (not “heaven” as most seem to expect).

    And primarily we should be searching the scriptures for ourselves, trusting the Holy Spirit to teach us – unless we are still “babes” in Christ still needing someone to feed us milk rather than being ready for solid food.

    “..solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil”.

    There is nothing confusing and inconsistent about seeing prophecy related to the future AS IT ACTUALLY IS – that is events still to come- instead of engaging in theological and historical gymnastics to make prophecies fit a preferred theology.

    A case in point is your explanation of Rev 19 describing Jesus on a white horse in which you claim that people actually saw armies and riders in the sky during the fall of Jerusalem so Rev 19 refers to the fall of Jerusalem.

    One MAJOR problem with your preterist view that I’ve just realised – is that it pours all of God’s judgement onto Israel in the past instead of upon the whole unbelieving, Christ-rejecting world in the final days before Jesus returns.
    Those theologies I reject above (Calvinism, Post-Millennialism, Preterism) seem to have a common thread of dismissing God’s ongoing relationship with Israel and their coming national salvation.

    Revelation reveals coming GLOBAL catastrophes of a scale not seen before, not a series of localised events fulfilled almost two centuries ago.
    And it reveals how Jesus returns and establishes a Kingdom on earth, while satan is removed from the earth by an angel, and is bound and imprisoned for 1000 years and prevented from deceiving the nations for that period.

    Any theologian promoting beliefs contrary to that clear biblical disclosure deserves to have his “scholarship” thrown out.

  12. Onesimus says:

    ” you have given no satisfactory response to my scriptural objections to interpreting Matthew 24 as a passage about Jesus’s final coming. The end it speaks of is the end of the age and destruction of the temple”…

    Not satisfactory to you – bit a completely satisfactory answer.

    Matt 24 is PARTLY about the time of the destruction of the temple. Jesus’ disciples asked Him about two things, ““when will this [destruction of the temple] happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

    Jesus answered BOTH in His prophecies.

    You continue to quibble over a single word referring to the generation that would see all of the things happen.

    As I’ve pointed out before the word you keep highlighting “this” is the same word used elsewhere in this passage, that is translated “these things” – so the word is not as specific as you insist.

    And as I’ve also said before, from the context He is referring to the generation who “see all these things” – the signs He’s just told His disciples about.

  13. Onesimus says:

    Hi Jonathan,
    I see that this continuing discussion isn’t going to change what either of us believe about this topic.

    Both of us need to determine that we really want to know the truth, and therefore will be willing to submit it to the Holy Spirit and allow Him to guide us into all truth.

    In the meantime I need to turn my focus back to those things that are REALLY important, and not allow this issue and disagreement to distract from that.

    Bless you
    Tim

    • Jonathan says:

      OK, yes, I agree… just want to point out that the Partial Preterism position does teach a day of judgment. It sounded like you said one of the major problems was that it doesn’t.

  14. Onesimus says:

    Hi Jonathan I assume your ‘day of judgement’ comment was in response to what I said previously:
    “One MAJOR problem with your preterist view that I’ve just realised – is that it pours all of God’s judgement onto Israel in the past instead of upon the whole unbelieving, Christ-rejecting world in the final days before Jesus returns”

    I was not referring to ‘day of judgement’ and perhaps I should not have used the term ‘judgement’. So look at my statement above and replace the word ‘judgement’ with ‘wrath’.

    I was referring to the outpouring of God’s wrath on the unbelieving world prior to Jesus’ return as detailed in Revelation – something that is directed at the nations and the whole world in the future, in the years immediately preceding Jesus’ return and not AD70 Israel.