When I started ministering healing, it soon led to ministering deliverance. I tried to learn as much about healing and deliverance as I could in order to be more effective. I initially accepted several popular teachings, but I couldn’t get away from the questions that came to me as I read scripture. I eventually concluded that these popular teachings had hindered me rather than helping me.
Please don’t be offended at this post. I know from experience that this topic has the potential to spark angry reactions. I do have friends who think differently! If you have questions about the implications of my view, please ask. I’m not discounting all counseling or the importance of dealing with heart issues, but I am examining common beliefs about what it takes to cast out a demon.
These are the taboo questions I began to ask myself as a young believer reading scripture, but I hardly dared to ask anybody else. Even as I half-accepted many of the popular teachings I read, I couldn’t shake these questions from the back of my mind. Join me on my thought-journey, and you’re welcome to share your own thoughts in the comments.
How did Jesus cast out demons?
Matthew 8:16 (NIV) When evening came, many who were demon-possessed were brought to him, and he drove out the spirits with a word and healed all the sick.
All it took for Jesus was “a word?” He didn’t even need two words? Surely, out of all the demon-possessed people that they brought to Jesus, there must have been a few demons that required a little more work to expel! Surely, some of those demons must have had a “legal right” to afflict the person. After all, how did they ever enter in the first place? Can you imagine Jesus saying “It’s not working. The demon is holding on because we still haven’t found how it entered or dealt with the generational curse it’s holding on to. “
And how could Jesus do all that in only one evening? When you have so many deep-rooted issues to work through, it takes a lot of time!
I’ll be honest. With some of the methods I learned about for ministering, an evening would only be enough time to get the demon go. That is, if it wasn’t a really deeply rooted issue that would take several ministry sessions to deal with. But Jesus cast out many demons in one evening, and he did it “with a word!”
Why couldn’t we cast out that evil spirit? Since Jesus is our model, we should look at the life of Jesus to answer this question. There’s one problem. Scripture doesn’t record any instances of Jesus being unable to cast out a demon.
It does, however, record an event in which the disciples were unable to cast out a demon. The story is found in Matthew 17:14-21 (NIV):
When they came to the crowd, a man approached Jesus and knelt before him. “Lord, have mercy on my son,” he said. “He has seizures and is suffering greatly. He often falls into the fire or into the water. I brought him to your disciples, but they could not heal him.” “You unbelieving and perverse generation,” Jesus replied, “how long shall I stay with you? How long shall I put up with you? Bring the boy here to me.” Jesus rebuked the demon, and it came out of the boy, and he was healed at that moment. Then the disciples came to Jesus in private and asked, “Why couldn’t we drive it out?” He replied, “Because you have so little faith. Truly I tell you, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you.”
Notice what Jesus didn’t say. He didn’t say:
Jesus said “You couldn’t cast it out because of your little faith.”
Wait! What an offensive statement! Jesus’ disciples had already cast out many demons and healed many sick people, going through all the towns and villages to declare the gospel! They were experienced! Wasn’t something more complicated than that going on?
I guess not. I have to admit that Jesus must have been right!
What did Jesus do? He cast out the demon with a rebuke. “Go!” That was all it took for Jesus. Notice what he didn’t do:
Since Jesus said that those who believe in him would do the same works as he did and greater, there has to be a place of walking in communion with God where we do what Jesus did and it’s just as simple for us as it was for Jesus. If Jesus cast out demons with a word or with a touch, it must be possible for us too. When Jesus so much as got near evil spirits, they knew their time was up.
Mark 3:11 (NIV) Whenever the impure spirits saw him, they fell down before him and cried out, “You are the Son of God.”
Mark 5:1-10 (NIV) They went across the lake to the region of the Gerasenes. When Jesus got out of the boat, a man with an impure spirit came from the tombs to meet him. This man lived in the tombs, and no one could bind him anymore, not even with a chain. For he had often been chained hand and foot, but he tore the chains apart and broke the irons on his feet. No one was strong enough to subdue him. Night and day among the tombs and in the hills he would cry out and cut himself with stones.
When he saw Jesus from a distance, he ran and fell on his knees in front of him. He shouted at the top of his voice, “What do you want with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? In God’s name don’t torture me!” For Jesus had said to him, “Come out of this man, you impure spirit!”
Then Jesus asked him, “What is your name?”
“My name is Legion,” he replied, “for we are many.” And he begged Jesus again and again not to send them out of the area.
If anybody needed to go through a process of dealing with heart issues before he could be free, it was the Gerasene demoniac. He was messed up!
But he wanted to get free. And all he needed was to encounter Jesus.
Notice that Jesus addressed one evil spirit, in the singular. Yet every single evil spirit knew they had to leave when Jesus spoke. They immediately began to beg Jesus not to send them out of the area.
How many deliverance sessions did it take for Jesus to set this man free? How long did it take to get rid of all those demons? It took only a command. They knew Jesus had authority, and they knew that they couldn’t convince Jesus that they had a right to stay.
Unfortunately, all too often evil spirits have been able to convince Christians today that they have a right to stay. Instead of inventing reasons why we were unable to do what Jesus did, let’s let scripture challenge us to grow in Christ.
Next week we’ll look at how the book of Acts confirms the observations in this post. Then we’ll go on to examine the notion that evil spirits have “legal rights” to oppress people.
Here’s my problem. Understand first that any deliverance councilor has either heard all these arguments a million times from others criticizing them who don’t actually do deliverance or they themselves have one time preached all of this. Do you actually believe that any deliverance councilor wants to have to do all this extra work to get a demon out? lol… Of course not. They ALL want it to be one word or a simple quick event. But the reason why it’s not ALWAYS like that is because of different circumstances. I know for a fact that you do not cast out every demon you encounter with one word. If you did, you would be the most famous Christian on earth because everyone you prayed for got delivered and we both know that has not happened. The reason why all these other factors of deliverance come into play like “rights” and counseling, is because it was what was needed to cast the demon out. Understand, they all start out in the deliverance with the simple word of “Go!” But when that doesn’t happen, they go to the next option. And then it works. Some things go really quick like that, and some things don’t. If you start doing more deliverance and work with the harder cases, I promise you, you will see why others that you seem to disagree with work the way you do. If you still are not convinced, I can arrange some sessions with some severe cases and you can do your thing and say the word, “Go” to them and see if it works.
Steve, first, I believe in getting doctrine from scripture and the life of Jesus, not from experience. But my experience is much different from yours. If you disagree, I’d love to hear a scriptural backing for your position.
Second, I don’t claim to have fully the results I’d like to see. But can you point to someone with a different method who does? If we are growing in Christ until we all reach the full measure of the stature of Christ, we want to know where we are headed.
Third, your comment seems to make some assumptions as if people who believe this way never really have much experience ministering deliverance. I’ve seen a person healed in a few minutes after months of inner healing ministry that only left her more frustrated because she wondered if she would ever finally get through enough of her issues to be healed. That approach ended up being a hindrance, not a help. (It was HIV with many complications and symptoms, and although I didn’t see a doctors report I talked to her a few weeks later and she’d had no symptoms of the multiple problems since.)
I’ve often ministered to people involved in witchcraft, even black magic, and seen them healed. One lady felt a witchcraft spirit leave through her hands when I released God’s peace into her. I hadn’t even known what she was in to. In the early days I was taught that Macumba could block a healing and we needed to find out if they were into Macumba and get them to renounce if the healing wasn’t working. I found out that if I didn’t believe Macumba could block it, then Macumba didn’t block them from getting healed. It blocked the healing for those who believed it could. I’ve seen various Macumba practitioners healed. I live in a place where it’s not uncommon to see a butchered chicken or other sacrifices to demons.
So although I can’t claim perfect results, I’m sharing my observances in scripture and what’s helped me and a few of my friends. I was trained in those more complicated ministry methods when I started. I read all about hindrances to healing, spiritual roots of disease, and more. I began getting MUCH better results when Dan Mohler convinced me to simplify things.
Some of the other most effective ministers I know have a similar approach. I mentioned Dan Mohler, and one of the things I noticed soon after I met Dan was that he got results where a lot of other people didn’t. People set free in a moment when years of extensive ministry did very little before.
It’s not that I have a problem with Spirit-led inner healing ministry. But the stories of Jesus’ ministry in scripture suggest that Jesus usually healed someone or cast out the demon first, and then the inner healing and dealing with peripheral issues followed, not preceded, the healing or deliverance. And I’ve often experienced the same. Jesus healed a man first, and then told him to go and stop sinning…
My issue with adding conditions to get someone free is that it negates Jesus’ promise “If you believe, nothing will be impossible,” which was even in the context of his disciples being unable to cast out a demon. Where did Jesus make it dependent on something the person receiving ministry did?
More coming in the next few weeks, including on the problems with assuming Satan has “legal rights.”
Nobody is arguing the point of what scripture says. What we are arguing is how to interpret the scriptures and make assumptions from them by what they did and didn’t say. The scripture never said that Jesus grew out a missing limb, so by the logic you are using, could Jesus actually do that? On the same token, The bible never said that Jesus ever had a person repent of something to cast a demon out. So does that mean it never happened since it wasn’t recorded? You are familiar with an ‘Argument of Silence’ because of what you said in your new post. So you should have known you are committing that fallacy when you make the statement “I believe in getting doctrine from scripture and the life of Jesus, not from experience.” If you don’t have experience, then how are you going to know you assessed and interpreted the scriptures correctly???? You totally committed an argument from silence. I think one of the worst false doctrines that the church has made up that is not biblical is the idea that everything that we need to know and live by is in the bible. The bible itself doesn’t say, ‘Unless it is written in the bible, then it can’t be of God.’ That is an unbiblical doctrine that came from the depths of religion. The bible never said anything like that. You’re preaching nothing new from the word of faith movement.
I already know what you’re going to say regarding the enemy having legal rights. Again, it will be the same thing from the word of faith movement who the people you learned all this from, got their theology. The funny thing is, you admitted you can’t cast everything out. So why criticize ones that use the methods that you are writing against, when you yourself haven’t proven what you are teaching is the 100% right way? Doesn’t make any since. Why would a person who is seeing more success than you in deliverance, go back to the basic way of simple commanding authority and that most everyone starts out at, where they saw limited results? I used to be straight-forward and basic just like you do. I would command demons because of the authority from Christ I carry and would tell those demons that they had no right and had to go. But I was observing that all wouldn’t leave. But over time, I realized they did have access, and when I found out what it was and broke it, the demon would come out easier than commanding it from my authority. You have made up a reason, probably from Dan Mohler of why demons don’t come out. You said, “Growing in Christ until we all reach the full measure of the stature of Christ.” Wouldn’t you think that the teachers who are preaching that today, should be there yet, or even somewhat close?
I knew for a fact you couldn’t cast everything out, which was why I commented on this. If you can’t replicate what you’re preaching and proving that it is true, then why preach it? Because it’s basically a theory until proven otherwise. All the deliverance and healing that Jesus did wasn’t recorded. And that’s a fact so nobody knows for sure if He ever got a person to renounce or repent. All I know is that in some cases, it really works which is why I don’t preach what you are preaching anymore. Some things go out with a simple command. Those are the minor demons and that’s how you know they are minor. The bible didn’t give us a manual on how to do deliverance. It just said to do it.
Last thing.. I talked to Dan Mohler personally after one of his teachings in which my friend didn’t get healed after he and todd white prayed over as well as the guy who came in with the wheel chair. I asked him, what happens when the demon doesn’t go when you pray and the demon doesn’t listen to you. He didn’t really have an answer. He just kind of shrugged it off and said that we just get a team to pray around the person, and then quickly changed the subject. I like Dan and use some of his teachings, but the guy can’t even practice what he fully teaches.
Brother, all I’m saying is, don’t throw the baby out with the bath water. Don’t close the door completely on something, just because it was taught by the teachers you idolize. If it works, then it works. Look at the results to determine whether or not you are mirroring scripture. Jesus healed all I believe. Let’s get to that point and be willing to receive what ever knowledge Jesus wants to teach, even if it is contrary to the doctrines we were taught by other we respect.
Steve, I don’t believe in arguing from silence, but this is not. If anything more than believing is needed, Jesus’ words “If you believe, nothing will be impossible for you” were false. My problem isn’t with you ministering inner healing. My problem is with the position that those issues can “block” you from casting out a demon or healing when they never “blocked” Jesus or the apostles from healing anybody. Doing so is negating Jesus’ teaching “If you believe, nothing will be impossible for you.” We come up with other reasons we were unable to cast out a demon because we don’t like the only reason Jesus gave, “because of your unbelief.”
The context of Jesus’ words was the disciples failing to cast out a spirit of epilepsy, which many deliverance ministers consider one of the hardest kinds of spirits to cast out.
Jesus casting them out “with a word” makes it pretty clear how simple it was. You said we know it’s not a minor demon when a simple command isn’t enough. The case of the Gadarene, which was by no means a so-called “minor” demon, makes it clear how simple it was. The Python spirit that Paul cast out was not a “minor demon” but a well-known territorial spirit, and scripture says it left “in that moment” when Paul rebuked it. It’s also clear that Paul’s handkerchiefs would not have expelled demons if anything more than God’s manifest presence was needed.
You’re continuing to imply that people with other methods are getting better results, but I honestly haven’t seen it. I have seen cases of people getting free in a moment when someone believed after months of deliverance sessions failed to help them.
About the Word of faith movement, I differ with them significantly on a few points and I certainly didn’t get my thinking in this article from them. Dan Mohler was the one who convinced my to simplify it by answering my questions(around 2006,) and I was not aware of anybody else at the time who was teaching what he did. I quickly began seeing about twice the results when I did simplify it. I hope I can recognize Dan’s contribution to my life without being accused of “idolizing” him.
I have seen nearly 100% results before in specific meetings, and once for a whole month with everyone I ministered to, to the best of my knowledge, except one person. I know a guy who saw 100% results for two years. I believe him because he talks about some things that not just anybody would know unless they’ve been there, and I recognize it. And he also takes the simple approach.
The problem with criticizing my right to share my position if I don’t get 100% the results I’d like to see is that you don’t have a right to do so unless you do get 100% results. Do you get 100% results with healing and deliverance, like Jesus did? If the failure of the person receiving ministry to deal with some hidden issue can ever block a healing or deliverance, then is it even possible to get 100% results as Jesus did? I think not. If not getting 100% results makes you only a theorist, then you probably don’t have a right to share your position either.
If you don’t get 100% results and then you put that on the person receiving ministry because they haven’t worked through some issues or forgiven someone yet, then you accept something less than what Jesus did as the standard, because if that stopped him surely there would have been someone He wasn’t able to get free. And Jesus said we would do the same works and greater? So this is certainly not an argument from silence.
I marvel that you said we “make up a reason” that the person is not healed, that we need to grow in Christ. That’s not a made-up reasons, it’s a solidly scriptural reason. In fact the ONLY reason scripture gives for a disciple of Jesus being unable to cast out a demon is unbelief. Ephesians teaches that we are growing in the knowledge of Jesus and growing up in “all things” in Christ. I’m sure “all things” includes faith and power. I’ve experienced enough of heaven on earth to know what’s possible and I know that most of the time I’ve lived very little in all that’s possible. Stephen’s face glowed like an angel even when they were stoning him, and we have full access to the same glory but how little we walk in it! When we are in faith it’s a place of absolute peace and fearlessness, no anxiety. With all the amazing things that I’ve experienced, I can still easily admit that I have plenty of room to grow in walking in faith.
Also, if you did try all stuff and it worked, I personally see it as having to do with perseverance and either the minister or the person receiving coming to a place of faith. It can also be the thing losing it’s foothold, which isn’t the same as a “legal right.” But even so, that position of believing we need to do all those things first becomes more of a hindrance than a help. We will never be able to cast out a demon as long as we believe it has a “legal right.”
And if you think a person has to renounce a witchcraft spirit to get free of a witchcraft demon, you probably won’t have faith for it if they don’t. But it’s not the method, because others are casting out the same thing without that method. I once released God’s peace into a person I didn’t even know because someone asked me to pray for her, and an evil spirit left through her hands. I didn’t know she was into witchcraft!
My question is, if I don’t see it in scripture and I started seeing much more happen when I stopped believing I needed all that stuff, why would I go back or let anybody convince me otherwise now?
It’s definitely an Arugment from Silence without a doubt. You can say that’s it’s not, but it flat out is. The only reason you’re trying to argue against it is because you horribly abusing it in your argument. I totally believe in Jesus’ words, just like every Christian who proudly proclaims that. Again, it’s just how we’re interpreting it. And this is how ALL theology is disputed. Interpretation….
You can say that they Never blocked Jesus, but we don’t have every instance of recorded healing that he did. The Argument of Silence fallacy obliterates your entire platform which is why you have to refute it, even it’s blatant. I too accept the scripture, “If you believe, nothing will be impossible for you.” Why would I refute what Jesus said when He’s God? But how we interpret that phrase is what will separate us. In other words, what does it mean to “Believe”? How you interpret that word alters the meaning. Also, many Christians have believed that all will go to heaven and demons will get saved. So, does that scripture apply in that context? Something for you to ponder.
When it comes to what is minor or major, I don’t define it as being a common spirit of blindness, compared to territorial spirit. That’s how you look at it. I’ve seen it when it’s difficult to remove a spirit of deafness, but incredibly easy to remove a territorial spirit, where that if you fart, the thing could leave. It’s not based on the demon necessarily, but why it is there and also the person them self. I’m not talking about if the person has faith or not. That is a lame judgment that Christians put on others who don’t get delivered. I’m talking about what the person has invested in something.
Do you know why you simply can’t make a person Christian with your authority? Because they have free will. Same reason Jesus didn’t cast out the demons of the Pharisees and make them Christians even though He knew they were there.
You said, “I have seen cases of people getting free in a moment when someone believed after months of deliverance sessions failed to help them.” Jonathan, I’ve seen the same exact thing too.. I’ve done several thousands of deliverance and healings too. What I’m saying is that for the cases that you have admitted in which you haven’t got healing or deliverance, consider that what I’ve been telling you in those instances. Consider that the reason you haven’t seen breakthrough in those cases is because of the very thing you criticize, you’ve closed the door to it because it doesn’t fit in your belief system.
You also said that you have had 100% results in meetings before. You’re not the first to claim that. Trust me, I’ve heard it a million times before from others who purposely toot their own horn, to try and prove their theology or get people to run to their ministry. Now, I don’t believe you are doing that. I believe you have a sincere heart in this and want to get people healed. As for me, I started off as a full time street healer and have taught many others to do the same. I stopped doing that when I started getting honest with myself and noticed that everything wasn’t getting healed. Then the Lord taught me about deliverance. I got shunned from all my friends who strictly did healing sadly. But I started seeing breakthrough in areas I couldn’t before. I stopped with the street healing and went in the ministry of deliverance and inner healing.
Here was my observation and experience. Street healers and stage healers can come away and claim 100% results. The reason is, they don’t follow up with the people that claimed healing either in the meeting, or on the street. Soooo many times I would see the sickness or the pain return, while stage healer or street healer would leave and then tell everyone that 100% got healed. What was sad was all of the people who had the sickness or pain return, watch the healing minister parade their results around and get notoriety for it, while they were still suffering and feeling even worse and discouaged than before. I’m no longer a fan of street healing and stage healing when the street or stage healer does not tell everyone ahead of time that if the sickness returns to seek further ministry because there is a stronghold there. Brother, I’ve got tons and tons of stories of people getting the pain or sickness to temporarily leave and then it come back. It shouldn’t be happening, and that is what ticks me off about the all authority healing model. So many people don’t actually get healed. It’s just that the healing prayer or deliverance prayer temporarily incapacitates the demon for an hour or two. Sometimes a couple days. But usually after a week or two, the symptoms all return. In my opinion, I wouldn’t call it a healing unless the sickness has stayed gone for at least 6 months. Sometimes even longer.
The people that I devote my ministry to are the people who have gone to all the stage healers, street healers, deliverance people, and inner healers and nothing has worked. They have been prayed over by all the big names. People from Bethel, David Hogan, Dan Mohler, Todd White, Andrew Wommach, Randy Clark, Todd Bentley, Heidi Baker, Curry Blake, etc… Please don’t get me wrong. I absolutely love and respect all these people from the bottom of my heart. They have sowed into me and taught me so much. But there is more out there.
You said, “We will never be able to cast out a demon as long as we believe it has a “legal right.” Ahhh, than how do you explain the thousands of demons I’ve casted out already??? Lol… You see, you’re telling me your belief and theory, and I’m just giving you my experience. So just right there, there’s no way you could convince me otherwise. You must have been thing that I’m the type of person who sits in a chair all day pontificating deliverance and the fundamentals that surrounds it without doing it.
You said, “I once released God’s peace into a person I didn’t even know because someone asked me to pray for her, and an evil spirit left through her hands. I didn’t know she was into witchcraft!” And your point is? I’ve walked by people and demons left. Witchcraft is not a hard spirit to make leave, but it can be hard to make leave depend on where that witchcraft is rooted in the person. The other thing is this, I guarantee you, that girl had more than one spirit of witchcraft in her. You do know that a demon can have more than one of the same demon. They lodge themselves in different dimensions of their soul. They could have 200 spirits of witchcraft depending on who they are, what they’ve been into, what they’ve been born into.
I’ve seen Christians who heal the sick, do deliverance, pastor churches, prophesy, have tons of encounters with Jesus, that have had demons cast out of them of witchcraft, anger, Jezebel, then find out later that they literally had a demonic structure in them that housed over 1000 demons that knew about. Do why that is? Because Christians don’t know that much about the soul and what real healing looks like.
I’ve never claimed to heal 100% of the people I work with. Why? Cause I’m not that foolish to say something like that because I understand what real healing looks like and what it truly takes to get a person to that place. And I’m not just talking about physical healing. I’m talking about mental, emotional and spiritual as well. I believe that everybody can be completely healed and that is my goal. But the last thing I’m going to do is say that this method is wrong, and that method is wrong when I’m not seeing it done 100% myself. If you re-read all that I’ve written, you would know that I never said what you’re doing is wrong. Why? Because I do what you do as well. I already said that I use strict authority to heal and cast out demons. What I have been saying is that it is not the only thing that will work. It works in some cases, but not all.
If you want to talk about this more, why don’t we skype. I can give you my email if you don’t already have it. I would love to talk to you about this. I don’t want you to stop doing what you are doing. Honestly, I love that you are doing this when most Christians aren’t and there are so many out there who need healing and deliverance. I want you to be successful in this and heal and deliver everyone you pray for. We both want the same thing 😉
Good post brother…gbu…i often would think why did it take Christians a long time to cast out demons or heal people when Jesus said one word and those demons had to leave or those people were heal instantly.. When i look at Jesus life the number one thing that stood out is he was in constant communication with his father he made sure he made time with him becuz his strength came from connecting with the father everything he did and said came Directly from the father not on his own. HE was the source..i believe when were connected to Jesus everyday praying fasting and meditating on his word soaking it in and just simply falling in love with him and spending time with him he will use us in mighty ways. Our faith needs to continue to grow and that happens when we allow the word of God to dominate our heart mind and soul… we have to be fully convince in our minds of Gods truth so that any lies of the enemey will quickly be exposed with the truth of Gods word..when were connected it’s then when we will always be empowered by the holy spirit and have the authority like Jesus to cast out them demons and see people around us healed its living like and doing things like Jesus did..its one thing to talk about it but we must demonstrate actions ppl need to see us out there praying sharing the good news sharing the Love of JESUS to this world letting our light shine for all to see so people see our deeds and Glorify our father in heaven. we gotta know who we are and believe in the one inside us that he is greater than anything in this world we have have to be fully convinced that nothing or no one can overcome the children of God who are in christ Jesus. I believe there so many things robbing our time alone with God and if we wanna continue to see God’s power manifested in our lives if we wanna do the things Jesus did Even greater things he said we will do then we need to spend more time with him..amen Blessings brother great post
Love it love it love it! Mark 3:11- been thinking about this- and we ought to be the same- one spirit.,💥✨
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As soon as I started reading this post it immediately put Matthew 12:43-45 and Luke 11:24-26 into a more understandable context. “24When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he saith, I will return unto my house whence I came out. 25And when he cometh, he findeth it swept and garnished. 26Then goeth he, and taketh to him seven other spirits more wicked than himself; and they enter in, and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first.” when Jesus sent the disciples out in Luke 10:1-12 healing the sick, casting out the demons, raising the dead, proclaim the gospel of the kingdom and if they don’t receive you it will be worse for them than Sodom in the day of judgment. So a disciple believing in Jesus following this instruction given in Luke 10 all things being possible to him believing ministers healing and deliverance and then the person rejects them and does not receive the good news of the kingdom… then follows Luke 11:24-26 the sickness and demons return and because they have not accepted the gospel and been filled with the Holy Spirit of Jesus is open for the return of what was cast out by the believing disciple and only because that person did not receive the gospel and chose to be filled with all the fullness of God. As I typed this it occurred to me further the importance of keeping scripture in context… Luke 10 the commission with instructions and Luke 11 follows with the immediate consequence for those who do not receive. If the son sets you free you are free indeed. Free to live for God unto righteousness and to die unto sin… you are a slave to whoever you submit your members to obey, God unto righteousness or sin unto death. Thank you for helping to fill in gaps in understanding.
Exactly! If the person got everything right before the demon was cast out, why would Jesus have had to give this teaching?
OK Steve, some thoughts…
You continue to say “You give me your beliefs and theory, and I’m just telling you my experience.” Yet that’s not true. I’m telling you both my beliefs from what I see in scripture and my experience. My experience is that complicating things is a hindrance to faith and many people get healed when things get simpler, not more complicated. In fact I’ve known people who were trained in that approach and were all excited about it, but even though they practiced it they had very few (if any) results of real supernatural healing.
When I read that Jesus went through all the towns and villages healing every sickness and disease, I can’t imagine how that would be possible if he was taking their approach. They spend weeks with one person. And people were thronging Jesus to the point that he and the disciples had to escape being trampled. If just a few of the people throughout “all the towns and villages” needed a few 1-hour ministry sessions before they could get free, how could Jesus have healed them all? It would have been far too much work. They already had trouble just getting away for a little break.
I think it’s the first time I’ve heard anybody share how they believe Jesus’ words “Nothing will be impossible for you” is compatible with the idea that things can “block” healing or deliverance. Everyone else I can remember talking to just ignores that scripture and evades it if you bring it up, without attempting to interpret it.
However, the very context of that scripture is healing and casting out a demon, not salvation, so I don’t find the argument about not being able to make someone get saved very convincing.
As for the Pharisees, they didn’t come to Jesus, but scripture does say everyone who came to him was made whole and everyone who touched him was made whole. I still have a hard time with us saying about someone who comes to us for help “I couldn’t help them because…” If everyone who came to Jesus was made whole, who couldn’t Jesus get free because…?”
And if everyone who touched even the hem of his garment were made whole, then where were the people who touched the hem of his garment and needed further ministry? This is not silence, because scripture says how they were made whole. A touch. And it was “all” who touched him, not just some. That leads us to the logical conclusion that nobody touched him and it didn’t work because something was blocking it. If there was one person for whom a touch was not enough, not everyone who touched the hem of Jesus’ garment would have been made whole.
I don’t really attempt to define “major” or “minor” demons at all, but I’m referring to other people’s use of these terms, thus the quotation marks. You brought up “minor” and “major” demons, and I think most people would consider a “Python spirit” a major one.
The thing is Steve, I’ve got a feel for what faith is, it feels like my heart is exploding because I’m so strong inside by the Holy Spirit, and I can honestly say I have never believed and it “didn’t work.” I can easily admit the times I’ve had a hard time believing, when I was too impressed with something that I shouldn’t have been impressed with. So I’m honestly never left wondering “why didn’t it work?”
Our friend Jeff Randle is teaching about “heart art,” and it has really helped. There are different ways to minister healing. When I started I think a lot of times it was more the faith of the people I ministered to than me, but I talked and taught what I learned shared testimonies so much that I got them to believe. That’s one way, and some ministries operate almost exclusively that way. (Which, by the way, is one of my major differences with the old word of faith movement, in that the WOF movement tended to really emphasize the faith of the receiver.)
But there’s also WOK. There’s also healing angels ministering. There are some people who see a lot of people healed when ministering to a crowd, but don’t have the same results with an unbeliever on the street. When I heard what Jeff was saying, I knew he was for real because several of the things he said, I don’t think most people would even know unless they had a certain level of experience. Those different modes are fine, but the problem is when the one we are used to becomes a limitation.
I agree with you about the need to deal with issues and the problem of people having an issue return. My second day in Brazil with my wife a guy’s deaf ears were opened and the family stopped their witchcraft, but later they went back to it and he lost his hearing again. However, Jesus told a guy to repent after, not before, he was set free. One thing I could do better with (and I’m working on) is teaching people to repent after they are healed. I don’t consider those things “legal rights” at all, I consider them footholds that make the person vulnerable to being attacked. I don’t believe anything the devil does to oppress people is “legal.”
By the way, I wasn’t at all thinking you don’t have any experience with this. As for you casting out demons that you believed had a “legal right,” I assume you did what you believed was necessary first to remove that “legal right.” That’s not what I’m talking about. I’m talking about being unable to get someone free because you believe it has a “legal right,” and you haven’t deal with or found what that legal right was yet.
My point about the witchcraft spirit and other people involved in witchcraft is that I was taught that those things could block a healing and people had to renounce them first, and they did until I stopped believing they could.
Anyways, I’m thankful for everyone who gets free even if I don’t have the same views or methods. What I’m sharing in my articles isn’t to criticize how others do it so much as to share what I’ve found helpful with my readers. As I said, I read a lot of books about the spiritual roots of disease and all that stuff, and I started seeing about twice as much happen when I stopped believing that could hinder people from getting healed or delivered. It’s certainly not that those “spiritual roots” don’t exist, or that people can’t get healed or delivered by dealing with them. If that happens, great! I just don’t see those things as limitations that have to hinder us. There are people who focus so much on those things that they rarely get anybody healed, as much as they talk about healing. If everyone who touched even the hem of Jesus’ robe was made whole, I believe there’s a place of walking in the Lord’s glory where everyone who so much as touches us will be made whole.
Oh, and about how we define faith, I’m really not happy with the “mind over matter” type view on it, and I see it much more as relational, knowing God rather than simple faith over the problem, growing in the degree to which we are manifesting God’s power and glory.
We may Skype sometime, and I’d be interested in hearing more of your experience. I’m do have a lot on my plate right now, but if you’d like to meet in the future, my Skype contact is Quierofuego. If anything, this discussion may help other readers to understand both sides of the issue, and I think we may also understand better where each other are coming from.
I Am Persuaded